香港應否成立動畫師工會?

[Marco]

>咁有冇自動硬勾Roto軟件？
>有嘅話我轉行勒！

我覺得 CG Visual o既精神系業界朋友之間o既交流, 有好o野我梗會同大家分享啦!

Keyframe-Based Tracking for Rotoscoping and Animation

http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/rotoscoping/

請留意條 link 有 Source code!

[stantang]

Has any of you thought about this: HK simply is not a good place for the animation industry to to blossoms.

Every city has its characteristic like human. It formed by its history, geographic, culture, etc... over many years, and it also affected the people who live there.

I believe most people here agree that the animation industry needs time and space to grow. We should ask a question: is HK's characteristic suitable for the animation industry? At the moment, I believe the answer is NO. But should the HK government do more to change HK's characteristic in order to best serve the creative industry? I don't think so. I don't believe it can be forced, it's form by many things over many years.

There is a reason why most VFX/animation located in California. Its history (home of Hollywood), geographic (space), etc... gives California the characteristic that works well with the industry.

Can HK slowly evolve into a place for the creative industry. I don't think so. Just look around you, how can you be creative if you can't hardly find a place quiet enough to think.

[Marco]

我好想知o既系, 本地各制作公司o既老細會點回答你呢個問題。

[h2o]

我都差只腳入黎.... 香港既公司文化系咩, 好多打工仔都知.

老板要你日日坐 office 對住部腦先叫做野, 但大家睇下外國 making of 就知, 做 research, 出外觀察系好重要. 你試下同老細講要出街觀察人 or 動物既 motion, 去郊外觀察日光既變化; 做 effects 既, 話要放火睇 reference.... 你估老細會有咩表情


另外, 一講進修公司又系驚過鬼, 就算唔問公司資助, 佢都怕你早少少走好似呃佢咁, 有幾日唔可以 OT 就拿佢命.....


返工時間又算死草, 你唔足鍾就話扣錢, 扣假....返多左就扮睇唔到


creative industry base on 咁既 system, 你話會點?

[h2o]

我想順便補充兩句:

根據現行勞工法例，雇主只能以雇員缺勤時間按日薪比例扣款，以日薪一百元、工作十小時為例，如遲到一小時，雇主只能按比例扣減人工十元，不能自行厘訂罰則，否則即屬違法。

雇主在合約加入限制性，要求雇員在離職後一段時間內，不可任職同一行業。此為不合法的條款。

雇員損壞或遺失雇主的貨品或用具，每次只可按值扣除，但以不超過 $300為限。此外，在這些情況下扣除的工資總額，亦不得超過雇員該工資期所得工資的四分之一。

雇主扣除雇員的工資以支付雇主強積金計劃供款，屬違法行為，可被檢控，一經定罪，最高可被罰款10萬元及監禁1年。



我知有公司系有違反左勞工法例, 但邊個幫打工仔呢? 呢樣野就系工會既職責

[stantang]

我好想知o既系, 本地各制作公司o既老細會點回答你呢個問題。

That's why there's something we called "HK style"... it's a way to adopt to the HK's characteristic. More or less like "中國特色o既社會主義"...

[cottonsan072]

Regarding Stan's comments.

Nothing should be forced or else it will lose it's meaning. But still, when I talked about the creative industry in this topic, I mean the overall industry, not only limited to animation, which also includes areas such as interactive, CG print and motion graphic as well. If we just talk about the animation industry. HK won't be able catch up till the time even I live and die twice! Like I said before, as bad the economy is now, there are still a plenty of opportunities in the western countries up for grab that need tremendous amount of qualified people / companies and some of these opportunities do not require to be done in the same geographic location. I don't expect HK to spearhead and take over as a leader of the creative industry globally. But just go for these opportunities and slowly implement the western culture in workplace will definitely head us into the positive direction gradually. It simply needs to start somewhere.

For the industry go to a positive direction, it needs to be a group effort. From top to bottom.

[cottonsan072]

Re: "香港既公司文化系咩, 好多打工仔都知.

老板要你日日坐 office 對住部腦先叫做野, 但大家睇下外國 making of 就知, 做 research, 出外觀察系好重要. 你試下同老細講要出街觀察人 or 動物既 motion, 去郊外觀察日光既變化; 做 effects 既, 話要放火睇 reference.... 你估老細會有咩表情 另外, 一講進修公司又系驚過鬼, 就算唔問公司資助, 佢都怕你早少少走好似呃佢咁, 有幾日唔可以 OT 就拿佢命.....
返工時間又算死草, 你唔足鍾就話扣錢, 扣假....返多左就扮睇唔到
creative industry base on 咁既 system, 你話會點?"

Time will tell what is going to happen to those penny wise pound foolish business owners

This is the reason why we should look further. Get more opportunities from oversea. (Of course people have to be able to do it and use the performance to do the talking). The influx of higher quality oversea assignments will definitely have to force employers and employees work and think differently.

[stantang]

when I talked about the creative industry in this topic, I mean the overall industry, not only limited to animation, which also includes areas such as interactive, CG print and motion graphic as well. If we just talk about the animation industry. HK won't be able catch up till the time even I live and die twice!

Well, I was talking about the animation industry since the topic of the thread talks about union for animators.

I think other creative mediums such as interactive, print has different situation. They require less time, less technical support which fits HK better. I actually think they are in a better shape than the animation industry in HK.

Since you're living in NY, you should notice that most of the creative mediums you mentioned are primary in NY but not in California. That's cause by the characteristic of the places. NY, in a way, is very similar to HK, highly urbanized, densely populated and both are very important commercial centres, but it has its unique cultural background which HK is lack of or loss. If you're only talking about the creative industry minus the animation industry, then yes, I agree HK should have a better/healthier industry.

there are still a plenty of opportunities in the western countries up for grab that need tremendous amount of qualified people / companies and some of these opportunities do not require to be done in the same geographic location.

I believe many HK companies had and already done that. Some of them had even passed this phase and start developing its brand, like imagi. Again, I'm talking about the animation/vfx industry.

I don't expect HK to spearhead and take over as a leader of the creative industry globally. But just go for these opportunities and slowly implement the western culture in workplace will definitely head us into the positive direction gradually. It simply needs to start somewhere

I think the key point here is "slowly implement", you can't expect the whole western style would work seamlessly. It has to evolve into something that works for the HK situation, otherwise it will fail. I agree it needs to start somewhere, but I don't agree that it should start from the government. After all the creative industry is a business, companies will have to find their way if they can't no longer complete in the global market. Of course, a little help from the government would be great but it's hard to measure how much is enough.

[cottonsan072]

When I said the government should help. I mainly mean education. After all, a good education system is straightly the government's job and responsibility. As we all know, there is a stark contrast for the quality of higher education relates to the creative industry between HK and the western country.

As the matter of fact, The level of creative works is better in California now as New York is more and more like HK. Very often that the job due before I even receive it. Which can lead to sacrificing of quality. This is the reason why New York is losing edge now in fact.

[Marco]

>When I said the government should help. I mainly mean
>education. After all, a good education system is straightly the
>government's job and responsibility.

改革現時o既教育制度或課程, 似乎都系一個高難度動作。

之前政府走去搞副學士, 已經搞到唔少人變o左白老鼠。

雖然話而家 d 課程內容太 diverse, 但我覺得各院校亦唔敢隨便開 d Course train specialist, 課程專系對業界好, 但可能對學生o既視野發展唔好。而且... 好多學生報讀大專時都唔系完全了解自己報讀o既學科。以香港咁多完化o既社會, 各院校都唔可能為某一個行業開太多專門課程。

我認同而家部份大專o既課程o既設計, 第一年乜都讀少少, 第二年選主修科。雖然咁樣三年都學唔到太多, 但其實學生畢業時先系佢地專業道路o既開始。學校只可以幫學生打底, 到底佢地出到去活存率有幾高就只可以由業界淘汰戰決定。

新人唔可以完全滿足業界o既需要, 呢個系一件正常o既事, 其實業界人士如果睇中一 d 有潛質o既新人, 都應該多多培養佢地。如果唔系就只可以o黎一批, 炒一批, 鬧一批。雖然我聽過有公司怕 train o左 d 新人出o黎後, 班員工有毛有翼時就會飛走, 仲打番自己轉頭, 浪費公司心血, 但如果大家都系咁做, 所有公司都唔會請到好o既新血。

如果我地真系有工會, 大家有冇諗過可以利用工會o既網絡, 負一 d 社會責任呢?

題外話, 電影業一早已經出現人材斷層, 我幾欣賞劉德華, 因為佢真系願意承擔, 親力親為做 d o野去改善。

[cottonsan072]

Re: "新人唔可以完全滿足業界o既需要, 呢個系一件正常o既事, 其實業界人士如果睇中一 d 有潛質o既新人, 都應該多多培養佢地。如果唔系就只可以o黎一批, 炒一批, 鬧一批。雖然我聽過有公司怕 train o左 d 新人出o黎後, 班員工有毛有翼時就會飛走, 仲打番自己轉頭, 浪費公司心血, 但如果大家都系咁做, 所有公司都唔會請到好o既新血."

In any business, if this happen, we all know whose fault is that!

[cgraymond]

同意

如果工會可以有更多的業界人士參與，

就教育和專業多作研究，

如何配合低收入和低技術的新人提升技能，

將會對動畫業的發展有很大的貢獻。